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Author Topic: National Collegiate Empty Holster ProtestOct 22-26  (Read 1232 times)
gregma
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« on: October 04, 2007, 07:56:55 AM »

National Collegiate Empty Holster Protest Oct 22-26

On April 16, 2007, twenty-seven students and five faculty members at
Virginia Tech lost their lives to a madman who possessed one distinct
advantage over his victims-He wasn't concerned with following the
rules. Undeterred by Virginia Tech's status as a "gun free zone," this
mentally unstable individual carried two handguns onto the university
campus and indiscriminately opened fire.

During the week of October 22-26, 2007, college students throughout
America will attend classes wearing empty holsters, in protest of
state laws and campus policies that stack the odds in favor of armed
killers by disarming law abiding citizens who are licensed to carry
concealed handguns virtually everywhere else.

In thirty-nine U.S. states, thousands of collegiate students and
faculty-age twenty-one and above-are licensed to carry concealed
handguns throughout their day-to-day lives. And they do so without
incident. However, despite the absence of any compelling evidence that
these licensed individuals might pose any more threat to college
campuses than they do to office buildings, shopping malls, movie
theaters, grocery stores, banks, etc., they are currently prohibited,
either by state law or school policy, from carrying their firearms
onto most college campuses. On October 22 these students, through
their Empty Holster Protest, will ask for a change.

In the last twenty years, the vast majority of the mass shootings in
America-from the Texas Luby's massacre to the Columbine High School
massacre-have happened in "gun free zones." Labeling an area "gun
free" may make some people feel safer, but as the shootings at
Virginia Tech taught us, feeling safe and being safe are not the same
thing.

For over a year, state law in Utah has allowed licensed individuals to
carry concealed handguns on college campuses. This has yet to result
in a single act of violence. Numerous studies, including studies by
John Lott, David Mustard, William Sturdevant, and state justice
departments, show that license holders are five times less likely than
non-license holders to be arrested for violent crimes. Clearly,
license holders pose little threat to college campuses.

While some may argue that guns have no place in institutions of higher
learning, the students of the Empty Holster Protest contend that it is
the threat of uncontested, execution-style massacre that has no place
on America's college campuses, and these students respectfully ask
that steps be taken to take the advantage away from those who seek to
harm the innocent.

----------------------------------------------------------

T-shirts are now available for anyone wishing to support the Students
for Concealed Carry on Campus (SCCC) empty holster protest.

http://www.shirtmagic.com/shop/concealedcampus
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just_a_car
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Because I can't carry a cop.


« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2007, 11:41:51 AM »

Has anyone actively looked into whether the UW "loophole" that I found over on OCDO means that those with a CPL can legally carry concealed?

I don't dare look into it myself, being a student there in my senior year. You'll bet that I'll be all over it once I graduate, though.

Honestly, I likely won't participate in this... due to my holster being "busy" at the time doing something else.
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gregma
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2007, 01:04:12 PM »

Has anyone actively looked into whether the UW "loophole" that I found over on OCDO means that those with a CPL can legally carry concealed?

I don't dare look into it myself, being a student there in my senior year. You'll bet that I'll be all over it once I graduate, though.

Honestly, I likely won't participate in this... due to my holster being "busy" at the time doing something else.

It is fully *legal* for you to carry on the campus of the UW.  Student or no student, there is no law forbidding it.  There are however, "rules" against it which students and employees must abide.  They can expel you from school.  They can not arrest you and charge you with a criminal violation.
A University can not create law, nor make anything illegal.
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amlevin
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2007, 01:19:47 PM »

While not exactly "Law", there is something called "Washington Administrative Code" which is enforced almost as if it was law.  This is where most regulations regarding weapons are codified for the State's institutions of higher learning.  Penalties for violation of WAC's are usually misdemeanors.
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just_a_car
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Because I can't carry a cop.


« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2007, 08:03:05 PM »

Actually, the UW Student Code of Conduct regarding carry on campus in section (3)(f) states that possession of firearms is an instance of misconduct, but then at the very end of that subsection, it goes to state in section (6) "Nothing herein shall be construed to deny students their legally and/or constitutionally protected rights."... So, seeing as how both the US and WA State constitution say I can carry both OC and CC, it's legal for me to do so... but I'm not going to point that out to the Dean until I've graduated.
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joeroket
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2007, 11:36:52 PM »

Yes it is absolutely legal for you to do so. But like you said it is considered misconduct which is not a crime but a discplinary offense.
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gregma
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2007, 09:07:46 AM »

While not exactly "Law", there is something called "Washington Administrative Code" which is enforced almost as if it was law.  This is where most regulations regarding weapons are codified for the State's institutions of higher learning.  Penalties for violation of WAC's are usually misdemeanors.

Would you happen to have a link to anywhere that says WAC's carry the full weight of law?
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Xhado
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2007, 11:19:07 PM »

Actually, the UW Student Code of Conduct regarding carry on campus in section (3)(f) states that possession of firearms is an instance of misconduct, but then at the very end of that subsection, it goes to state in section (6) "Nothing herein shall be construed to deny students their legally and/or constitutionally protected rights."... So, seeing as how both the US and WA State constitution say I can carry both OC and CC, it's legal for me to do so... but I'm not going to point that out to the Dean until I've graduated.

Central (where Im at) has the same loop hole as well.
"Students are members of both the University community and the larger community outside the University. As members of the University community, students are guaranteed those rights described in this document. As members of the larger community, students are afforded those rights guaranteed by the state and federal constitutions, the authority of which extends across both communities."
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just_a_car
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Because I can't carry a cop.


« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2007, 06:23:06 PM »

Yes it is absolutely legal for you to do so. But like you said it is considered misconduct which is not a crime but a discplinary offense.

Actually, no, it's not misconduct. Please re-read my post about how their own Student Code of Conduct prevents them from denying me my RKBA due to it being a Constitutional Right. They, technically, couldn't even suspend/expell me for carrying at school. Any disciplinary actions would be against their own Code of Conduct and a violation of my Constitutionally-affirmed Rights.
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joeroket
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2007, 09:50:18 PM »

Ahh yes. I just looked at the WAC again. It's odd that they say it's not misconduct if it is constitutionally protected but then specifically restrict frearms. They will probably try and use the "disrupts teaching" crap.
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gregma
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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2007, 02:38:52 AM »

Ahh yes. I just looked at the WAC again. It's odd that they say it's not misconduct if it is constitutionally protected but then specifically restrict frearms. They will probably try and use the "disrupts teaching" crap.

They will probably say that the 2nd amendment does NOT protect an individuals right to carry a firearm.  Only the "Militia".  Of course if the SCOTUS then says that the 2A provides individual rights, I'm not sure where they will stand...
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Euromutt
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« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2008, 02:10:32 AM »

They will probably say that the 2nd amendment does NOT protect an individuals right to carry a firearm.  Only the "Militia".
That still leaves the state constitution, Article I, Section 24:
Quote
The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, [...]

I attend Evergreen (where I'm on the Police Services Community Review Board, the Student Conduct Code Hearing Board, and the Deadly Force Review Board), and I just had confirmed today that Evergreen's policy matches that of UW; namely, that possession of a firearm on college grounds is not a prosecutable criminal offense, but it is a disciplinary offense. In other words, they can't have you arrested for carrying, but you can be suspended, expelled or fired.

I have a problem with this, given that Evergreen (like UW, WWU, CWU, WSU, and various community and technical colleges) is a state institution. Well, as it happens, I'm also slated to be on the Student Conduct Code DTF (Disappearing Task Force), which should be formed sometime before the end of the academic year to review the Student Conduct Code, and I fully intend to bring this point up. I already have a problem with the SCC in that WAC 147-120-035 lists "specific examples" of violations, adding "These examples of student conduct code violations are not designed to define violations in exhaustive terms." Call me old-fashioned, but I believe in the principle of nullum crimen, nulla poena sine lege ("no crime, no punishment without law"), including its corrolaries that the law must be written and pre-existing for an offense to be punishable (even if it is only administrative punishment).
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 02:31:24 AM by Euromutt » Logged
joeroket
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« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2008, 02:20:15 PM »

They will probably say that the 2nd amendment does NOT protect an individuals right to carry a firearm.  Only the "Militia".
That still leaves the state constitution, Article I, Section 24:
Quote
The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, [...]

I attend Evergreen (where I'm on the Police Services Community Review Board, the Student Conduct Code Hearing Board, and the Deadly Force Review Board), and I just had confirmed today that Evergreen's policy matches that of UW; namely, that possession of a firearm on college grounds is not a prosecutable criminal offense, but it is a disciplinary offense. In other words, they can't have you arrested for carrying, but you can be suspended, expelled or fired.

I have a problem with this, given that Evergreen (like UW, WWU, CWU, WSU, and various community and technical colleges) is a state institution. Well, as it happens, I'm also slated to be on the Student Conduct Code DTF (Disappearing Task Force), which should be formed sometime before the end of the academic year to review the Student Conduct Code, and I fully intend to bring this point up. I already have a problem with the SCC in that WAC 147-120-035 lists "specific examples" of violations, adding "These examples of student conduct code violations are not designed to define violations in exhaustive terms." Call me old-fashioned, but I believe in the principle of nullum crimen, nulla poena sine lege ("no crime, no punishment without law"), including its corrolaries that the law must be written and pre-existing for an offense to be punishable (even if it is only administrative punishment).

I couldn't agree with you more. It would be the same as a beat officer arresting someone for carrying a back pack with a metal chain hanging from it, because afterall the chain could be used a s a deadly weapon.
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sv_libertarian
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2008, 12:16:56 AM »

Hey Euromutt!  I'm in Oly, we should meet up sometime...
I had a discussion on Olyblog.net about guns and campus, and TESC's Social Contract which protects civil rights and then disarms students...  actually IIRC the stupid thing is written in such a way that would pretty much demand students show up in the nude and carry nothing...
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Euromutt
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2008, 06:28:57 AM »

I had a discussion on Olyblog.net about guns and campus, and TESC's Social Contract which protects civil rights and then disarms students...
I know, I weighed in on it (I'm "Jurjen S."). Reading your blog is how I ended up here, actually.

Like I said over there, I had a chat with the Grievance Officer, who told me that carrying on campus was not criminally prosecutable, but still grounds for disciplinary action. What I preferred not to mention on OlyBlogs was that she added that she suspected that quite a few students CC, but that there's pretty much jack the college is able/willing to do to stop them. Makes sense to me; the open layout of the campus and the design of most of the buildings makes it practically impossible to screen for weapons at the doors.

Well, if I get on the SCC DTF (which is not unlikely), I will certainly bring up the point that the Code currently violates certain freedoms guaranteed by the state constitution, and that that really isn't on for a state-funded college. We'll see how far I get. There's some arguments to be made on the basis of the content of the page about the Social Contract.
Quote
The individual members of the Evergreen community are responsible for protecting each other and visitors on campus from physical harm, from personal threats, and from uncivil abuse.
And I'm supposed to protect my fellow community members using what, exactly?
Quote
Among the basic rights of individuals are freedom of speech, freedom of peaceful assembly and association, freedom of belief, and freedom from intimidation, violence and abuse.
Here's where we get into stormy waters. "Freedom from intimidation" is a nice thing to strive towards (though I doubt I'd consider it a "basic right") but what constitutes "intimidation" is pretty subjective. The college bans weapons on campus because some wilting patchouli might find the mere presence of one "intimidating." But yet, the college does not prohibit dogs on campus, even though I've known some dogs that were pretty damned intimidating. Ah but, I suspect the response would be, dogs are required to be kept leashed. Yeah well, so require firearms to be kept holstered; same difference. At least my pistol won't spontaneously strain at its holster and bite a child, like one tied-up but unattended dog did outside the CRC last month.

And yeah, we should meet up sometime. Maybe I could find time to make my way down to the Brotherhood or Tugboat Annie's some night. I'm also very interested in this "spring shoot" you suggested. I have this Smith M&P40 that I have yet to find time to take shooting...
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 07:52:19 AM by Euromutt » Logged
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